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Prominent AIDS Denialist Dies

| 126 Comments

What should we call it? A suicide? What should we call it when a woman dies because she refuses to believe she has a treatable illness?

And what should we call it when a woman lets her baby daughter die because she refuses to believe the baby has a treatable illness? A murder?

Christine Maggiore, one of America's most prominent AIDS denialists -- someone who believes HIV is not the cause of AIDS -- just died at the age of 52, three years after her daughter's death, according to the L.A. Times:

Christine Maggiore and her daugherMaggiore, 52, was founder of Alive & Well AIDS Alternatives, a nonprofit that challenges "common assumptions" about AIDS. Her group's website and toll-free hotline cater to expectant HIV-positive mothers who shun AIDS medications, want to breast-feed their babies and seek to meet others of like mind. She also had written a book on the subject, titled "What if Everything You Thought You Knew About AIDS Was Wrong?"

In 2006, the Los Angeles County district attorney's office decided not to file criminal charges against Maggiore, whose daughter died the year before in what the county coroner ruled was AIDS-related pneumonia.

Los Angeles police had been investigating whether Maggiore and her husband, Robin Scovill, were negligent in not testing or treating Eliza Jane Scovill for the human immunodeficiency virus before her May 2005 death.

Maggiore had said that she did not take antiviral medications during her pregnancy and that she did not have her daughter tested for the virus after birth.

AIDS denialism has resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths in South Africa (see my previous post explaining why), and now two more here in the U.S.

Any other idiots want to kill themselves or their children today? Anyone else out there with an HIV diagnosis want to just believe it's a harmless virus?


Edited to add: While I have been allowing denialists to vent in the comments section of this posting, I won't allow them to link to or promote any of their propaganda, which I consider lethal. I have edited some comments below to remove some links, and have deleted at least one post that was purely promotional. I consider AIDS denialism to be similar to a deadly virus, and won't let it infect this blog.



Peter on:

126 Comments

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Comments on Peter Staley's blog entry "Prominent AIDS Denialist Dies"

what motivates the people who support this?

Do we have details on cause of death?

Was it an AIDS-related condition?

I wonder who supported her non-profit.

It's ok for one to be a denialist about one's own health but not regarding a child like that. Both she and her husband should have been charged.

Well unfortuately I guess she learned the hard way that she was WRONG.

What should we call it??

What should we call it when zealots leap to conclusions while the full circumstances of Christine's death are still unknown?

Blind bigotry, that's what.

And what should we call it when a zealot such as Peter Staley accuses a dead woman of murdering her daughter, even though the L.A. police declined to support such a charge against Christine after a full investigation?

I call it dancing on the grave of the deceased.

Christine Maggiore was always measured in her statements on HIV/AIDS. That was the hallmark of her activism. It was a mature and responsible approach.

Perhaps you could learn that from her in her death.

It's hard to remain measured on such an emotionally charged issue as AIDS, but Christine had to balls to play it right.

More balls than you, Stanley.

Hey Peter,

I remember you from ACT UP days. We both used to do die-ins and civil disobedience to get "life-saving" drugs approved more quickly. We used to demand a "cure".

How's your new niche here blogging for the pharmaceutical companies you used to fight?

I've lost count of the number of friends and valiant AIDS warriors who have died while taking their drugs. How about you?

Remember this chant?:
SHAME!

Former member ACT UP/KC

Perhaps if there were more people like Christine in the world, and less shills like Peter here, Christine would not have had to give her life fighting.

This woman lost her child, bore the death wishes of legions, and continued on with her fight as long as she could. She should be honored, not ravaged by these jackals.

So you and your like can count on us defending her family, her legacy, and her cause. We have love, truth and justice with us, infinitely stronger than your hate, lies and greed.

There is no point in arguing with people who believe in things that the earth is flat or that hiv doesn't cause aids. But for other people I'd like to point out some facts.

Fintan Dunne has a list of arguments that mostly are related to AZT and most citations are from before the advent of HAART.

Apart from the actual scientific data that exists to support the fact that hiv causes aids anyone can look at statistics before 1996 and after 1996. In countries which provide free or cheap hiv medications aids-related deaths and progression to aids dropped with a few magnitudes when modern anti viral treatment became available.

From a personal standpoint I can see that everyone I know which have had an aids diagnosis have improved their health when starting on medication. Before haart the mortality of aids was almost 100%. Coincidence?

Christine's inaction directly caused the life of her 3 year old daughter.

Christine's ignorant rhetoric and manipulative banter has caused the lives of countless humans across the planet. South Africa alone is experiencing heavy casualties that have resulted from the bullshit she fed Mbeki.

So Eliza Jane and Christine were HIV positive and are now dead. Her husband and son, Robin and Charlie are HIV negative and remain alive. Hmmm....as if that isn't telling enough. But the denialists don't want to hear it folks. The party line is that Christine was so distraught over her daughter's death that it caused her body to weaken and fail. Right! Millions of women have lost infants to abduction, murder and war - yet they haven't suffered AIDS-related pneumonia.

Sadly, the idiots on AIDS Myth Exposed are so terrified of HIV that they'd rather continue believe anything - no matter how implausible - than face a simple fact (that isn't so scary anymore folks): untreated HIV is lethal. But proper healthcare equals long life.

It really is a no-brainer.

Yes, the world is a better place without Christine Maggiore in it.

Fintan, you're [deleted]! Your "friend" dies from immune collapse and you sit here spewing [deleted] rather than asking YOURSELF how this could happen to a woman who proclaimed herself to be so healthy.

I have many podcasts of this woman AFTER her daughter's death telling everyone how healthy she was, insisting her organic lifestyle, meditation and her holistic approach to wellness is the key to a long life and she dies when HIV negative homeless alcoholics and people in prison live into old age.

Get a clue Fintan!


Moderator note: we've deleted some of the language above. Any additional comments that include crude language will be deleted.

No YOU get a clue you lifeless [deleted].

For that matter everyone else who is blindly obedient to the false BULL which is our current status quo. Get a clue yourselves.

Her daughter NEVER tested HIV positive you idiots. And yes, her HUSBAND is negative. After YEARS of marriage and admitted unprotected sex. What is he the luckiest guy in the world?

Christine died of an acute condition you [deleted]. AIDS is not an ACUTE disease [deleted]. This poor woman has suffered since she started speaking out and ASKING QUESTIONS. She never forced ANYONE to believe ANYTHING. I don't remember AIDS rethinkers castigating those who politely hold the opinion that HIV causes AIDS. They never said the world is a better place without this or that AIDS researcher.

If ASKING QUESTIONS and standing up for your right to deal with your own health in your OWN way is a crime then I am guilty too. Matter of fact why not line up the ever increasing bulk of people who are turning away from pills injections and chemicals.

Do you know how many people died because of AZT monotherapy when they were using it in the 80s? THOUSANDS. Do you know how many adverse reactions are the result of CURRENT "treatments"? More than you can count up to in a single breath. Do you know what the leading cause of death is in HIV+ patients right now? ADVERSE DRUG REACTIONS, or I should say DIRECT EFFECTS of the drugs via LIVER FAILURE.

The recent studies suggest BY THEIR OWN WORDS that there is ABSOLUTELY NO increase in LONGEVITY for those who are on HAART vs. those NOT on ANY meds.

What exactly are you trying to say? Christine was bad for speaking out against a science that is fraudulent, doesn't work, RAPES the public of their tax dollars, and creates a neverending aura of perpetual progress through further suggestions and encouragement for people to blindly donate even more money to various charities.

Do you [deleted] even know the first thing about health? Honesty? Integrity? Humility?

Have you no sense and humanity?

This isn't some denialist mother who died. This is a person who was brave enough to question the status quo, give courage to others and pave the way for a whole movement of average Jane's to feel empowered to stand up for truth and what's right.
And now this woman leaves behind a young son of barely 10 years old and her husband. And the only thing out of your mouth is "what a better world without her."

No [deleted].

What a better world without you. What a better world without ignorance and greed poisoning your [deleted] minds. What a better world without bigotry and hatred.

It takes almost no effort at all to hop on your computer and type some slanderous and vile comment. It takes much more to hold your tongue, and even more in addition to that to try and show even an ounce of respect even if for only a few days.

This lady never harmed one person in her life. And you have the audacity to say some [deleted] like "better world without her."

How do you sleep at night? Not only do you not understand anything about biology and science, but you also have no manners or apparently no heart either.

You get a clue you [deleted].


Moderator note: we've deleted some of the language above. Any additional comments that include crude language will be deleted.

Some of you would make a great lynch mob. Same psychology: emotions before facts. Here's the facts.

The San Francisco Chronicle reported: "...the official cause of her death was pending, county coroner Assistant Chief Ed Winter said Tuesday. He said it was unclear if her death was AIDS-related."

But even if it's unclear to the competent officials, it's case closed for you. Sober judgment and facts are a mere inconvenience.

According to an email by Christine's husband Robin Scovill: "A week and a half ago, Christine was diagnosed with bilateral pneumonia and did not conjure the strength to overcome it. She died unexpectedly in her home with her husband and a dear friend."

That doesn't sound like so-called "AIDS-related PCP Pneumonia," a fungal infection of the lungs usually over a protracted period. It sounds like a standard bacterial pneumonia. And it sounds very unusual, in that she was not hospitalized at the time and there was a sudden decline.

Hanna wrote: "Christine's inaction directly
caused the life of her 3 year old daughter."

Unfortunately, the Los Angeles DA disagrees with you. After a long police investigation he did not proceed with a prosecution. I have no doubt that he would have, if there was a case for child endangerment or even a lesser charge of child neglect. Clearly there wasn't.

Despite this, Peter Staley implies that Eliza Jane's death was "a murder." Not just manslaughter, a murder, no less. It's no wonder there's a lynch mob psychology here.

Yet 'denialists' are supposed to be the ones who cannot reason??

Sorry if these facts are as inconvenient as the facts about AIDS diagnosis and meds.

You all forget the one important thing that this woman proved! She proved that HIV is not a death sentence as the medical community would have us all believe and she proved this by outliving even those who go on their so called life saving poisons. She tested positive in 1992 and died in 2008 and this means that she lived for 16 years without your poisons and what explanation do you have for that?

Yes, the world is a better place without Christine Maggiore in it.

Oh my God, I can't believe I have just read this, I feel sorry for you Hanna ,
Have you ever questioned anything? Might it not occur to you that the scientists that provide the evidence are paid by the pharma companies and the scientists that challenge the evidence disappear because they have their funding stripped.

Scientific absolutism is not science, and you with no brain prove the point.

What good is a round world with [deleted] like you on it

Shame on you!

Moderator note: we've deleted some of the language above. Any additional comments that include crude language will be deleted.

Oh you might want to check out Fintans web site, you might learn a thing or two...then again i suspect you will just keep on believing everything you read in the mainstream media and living in you judgmental cocoon

breakfornews.com

Oh and Peter, Peter, Peter! Does it make you feel good calling some one a murderer? You [deleted], curse you [deleted]


Moderator note: we've deleted some of the language above. Any additional comments that include crude language will be deleted.

I totally support & reiterate the following WORTHY message + all those who have the BRAINS & insight to know exactly what this entire HIV & so-called AID$ farce is really all about! Breathe IN - & smell the MONEY!
It sinks - doesn't it just!

"Posted by Jon Barnett | December 30, 2008 5:13 PM
Posted on December 30, 2008 17:13
Rick:
Perhaps if there were more people like Christine in the world, and less shills like Peter here, Christine would not have had to give her life fighting.

This woman lost her child, bore the death wishes of legions, and continued on with her fight as long as she could. She should be honored, not ravaged by these jackals.

So you and your like can count on us defending her family, her legacy, and her cause. We have love, truth and justice with us, infinitely stronger than your hate, lies and greed."

Peter, how you can support such genocidal [deleted], beats me! Also, how you, as a proud GAY MAN can throw your VERY OWN BROTHERS to these sharks, is beyond my wildest imagination.
Thanks god that I never have to face nor accept your deserved karama!

Hey Christine! - I just KNOW without a shadow of doubt that you're smiling whilst reading this - I MISS YOU SO MUCH DEAR SOUL!
[deleted links to denialist sites]
@nnie / Durban / SOUTH AFRICA

Moderator note: we've deleted some of the language above. Any additional comments that include crude language will be deleted.

RE: Your comment: "AIDS denialism has resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths in South Africa (see my previous post explaining why), and now two more here in the U.S."
DON'T YOU DARE EVER PUBLISH ANYWHERE, ANYTIME SUCH BLATANT LIES!
I am here on SOUTH AFRICAN soil, which you are NOT, & I can assure you that the HIV & so-called AID$ meds definitely ARE responsible for many, TOTALLY UNNECESSAY DEATHS!
Leave my country & my beloved people OUT of your MONEY MAKING $CAM!
You are the LOWEST OF THE LOW - now get the hell out of here and PLEASE take your TAC buddies WITH YOU!
You greedy [deleted] you!
@nnie / Durban


Moderator note: we've deleted some of the language above. Any additional comments that include crude language will be deleted.

In response to Mark's question ("I wonder who supported her non-profit?"):

Nate Mendel, bassist of the Foo Fighters, was a vocal supporter of Christine Maggiore about 10 years ago. I recall reading that the Foo Fighters either played a benefit or donated the proceeds of a show to her group. If you look around you'll find some photos of her with Dave Grohl, too.

I'm a denialist...

I've heard of those who believe in a holistic treatment for HIV..
I've heard of those who believe HIV is a harmless virus..

But I've been in denial that SO MANY IDIOTS ignore the proven scientific research that HIV does in fact cause AIDS, and eventually lead to death.

The comments above defending/supporting Christine just re-enforce the fact that I have been in denial.

It is very interesting to read the comments opposing Peters blog. What a compliment to know that even those who despise/oppose his views still come to poz.com -- a culmination of Peters Life.

Hey Peter Stanley, Hanna, and other crazy AIDs zealots.. your AIDS-HIV religion has been debunked. I know you are happy to cheer because of the death of one debunker, but you will never stop reason and facts from coming through.

poor, poor chad thinks HIV is a death sentence. he should do some real research.

To Mario C, I have never read such ill-informed rubbish when you write there us no increase of longevity of those on HAART vs no drugs.Are you mad? Are you illiterate? Do you not know how to read research? I live in the UK, am infomed by all of the latest research comming out of Europe and USA , and from bitter experience can assure you that HAART increases longevity, saves lives and inhibits the HIV virus which causes AIDS. If you want to deny this, then so be it. I can't control or influence your low intelligence. If it was just a matter of a different opinion, I could accept it. But hey...the earth is not flat, its round. HIV meds work for most people if you are treated in time.

I guess that this is a site for bashing and not for exchange of ideas. This is my first time visiting this site and I have read the information and rebuttals and I still have not learned anything that contributes to the debate regarding the link between HIV and AIDS. I have read discourteous exchanges with posters demeaning each others humanity and very little respect for each others views. I imagine many posters here feel marginalized and demeaned for their beliefs or disease however they project it one each other.
I have learned something from reading these posts but it is not what I was looking or even hoping for. I can understand a spirited debate but this... wow!
I was looking for an understanding of the thought process behind the beliefs but I guess this is not a safe place for dialogue but rather a fighting ring where each expletive is supposed to deal a knock out punch.
I cant... life is too short for this.

This post was not 'dancing on the grave.' It was a reminder of the harm that can be done by denialism and that message should be sent regardless of the ultimate cause of death in both cases. Thousands are dead already because of a failure to understand good (but not perfect) science. One of my former lovers is dead because homophobia prevented him from getting tested. Peter is right to bring this forward, because people are still being hurt--badly hurt--by Christine Maggiore's ideas.

Fintan, could you be any more dishonest, really?

You're now calling the coroner's office "competent officials?" Please, how do you sleep at night being so disingenuous?!

This is the same office you've called into question over their integrity and implied that they fabricated an erroneous cause of death for Christine's deceased 3-year-old daughter, Eliza Jane, when the coroner stated her death was caused by PCP pneumonia.

You can't have it both ways Fintan.

Incidentally, healthy 52 year old women don't die in the united states from pneumonia and though I seriously doubt Robin Scovill would ever allow an autopsy he knows will find PCP, we all know that's what it was. As for EJ, children cannot have anaphylaxis the first time they've taken an antibiotic (she never had a sensitizing event).

Yeah, I know, Christine was stressed after her daughter's death (that she caused) and wasn't eating right so she died of a broken heart. Give me a break! When homeless crackheads and prostitutes NEVER develop PCP, PML, CMV Retinitis, Cryptococcal meningitis or Toxo UNLESS they ALSO test positive for HIV, it makes a good case for HIV as the culprit. But I'm open Fintan, why don't you share the studies you have of HIV negative folks with the illnesses I just listed who haven't undergone chemotherapy or organ anti-rejection drugs. C'mon, I'm waiting.

Seriously, the whole denialist camp is sinking into the cemetery but you're still here trying to debate whether her pneumonia was acute or chronic. PCP CAN and DOES develop as an acute illness all the time (but I know, despite clinical evidence, you deny that too).

Deny, deny, deny, deny - deny it to the end - that's the name of the game, isn't it Fintan?

I want to thank Peter Staley for all he has done for and around AIDS. I am shocked to see how many people sent negative comments to his position on HIV denialists. I do not choose to debate the value of medications because one can not debate a given truth, that meds work. I was diagnosed in 1984 (the first year the test was available). Through circumstances too complicated to go into here, I know I was positive since 1977 and very likely before that. My CD4s have been low but stable (around 200) with an undetectable viral load for over 10 years. There is no question in my mind that they have kept me alive and yes, probably have caused some problems as all strong medications eventually do. I will bet that if you were to do a study, you'd find that many of the people who deny that HIV causes AIDS, also deny the Holocoust existed.
I hate that drugs cause so many side effects and that they are not more available to people in other countries who can not afford the prices that drug companies charge. However, I hate even more the alternative.

I guess everything Christine thought she knew about AIDS was wrong. Dead wrong.

Stupid fools cause their own deaths every day. Only sorry she was afforded a platform to encourage so many disenfranchised souls to die before her.

I am only too familiar with the rubbish spewed by those who claim that HIV does not cause AIDS. As an ex-South African, I am horrified by the behavior of Thabo Mbeki, who has bought into the line of bull that HIV does not cause AIDS -- in a country in which at least 15% of the population is infected with HIV.

Christine Maggiore was morally culpable of murder -- period. (Note that I expressly avoid stating that she was legally guilty of murder -- legality and morality are frequently unrelated.)

If a person wishes to refuse life-saving treatment for himself or herself, so be it -- we should grant that person a "Darwin Award" for their determination to deprive the gene pool of their presence. But when a person refuses to extend life-saving treatment (HAART) to a child, that person is guilty of nothing less than cold-blooded murder.

A relative of mine in South Africa nearly died of AIDS. We were able to arrange for him to receive HAART (before HAART became widely available in South Africa), and he left off dying and is now more or less back to his old self.

The problem with HIV denialists is that they are quite literally delusional. No amount of information or cold fact will change the mind of a person who is in the grip of a delusion.

It is too much to hope that these people will be swayed by the death of this unfortunate woman. They will quite literally assert that she died of a "broken heart," or that she died as the result of being exposed to "environmental toxins." Like the founder of Christian Science, such people will assert that they are "mentally murdered" before they will acknowledge that HIV causes AIDS (which causes death).

God help them.

PHILIP

mar,

I attempted to address your concerns but apparently my thoughts and references were deemed to be too "denialist" in nature, and my post was deleted. how sad.

my best advice is to dig, dig, and keep digging. the truth has a way of making itself apparent, and needs no bells and whistles to make itself known.

maybe this site could also make it policy to remove the comments of anyone attempting to funnel readers toward advertisements for various pharmaceuticals. oh wait...

Simon writes: "Hey Peter Stanley, Hanna, and other crazy AIDs zealots.. your AIDS-HIV religion has been debunked. I know you are happy to cheer because of the death of one debunker, but you will never stop reason and facts from coming through."

RESPONSE:

My tolerance for bullshit is very low.

Reason and facts have been coming through in spades since 1995, when HAART first became available. Anti-HIV drugs -- reverse transcriptase inhibitors, protease inhibitors, integrase inhibitors, and entry inhibitors -- are saving lives as I write this. To deny this is akin to denying that the Earth revolves around the Sun.

PHILIP

Rick, don't suggest you've been silenced from this site as you post away.

I've tried to post countless times on Aids Myth Exposed but because I don't tow the party line, my posts are NEVER published (try it yourself, you'll see).

Here you are, posting in disagreement on a site that accepts what 99.9% of the science and medical establishment has concluded on the subject of HIV/AIDS and your posts aren't banned.

When you have the truth on your side, you don't need to restrict comments from the opposition. The denialist camp is in such fear of their sheep leaving the dark.

ummm...I wasn't suggesting that i'd been silenced. I posted a couple references trying to address some of mar's concerns and my post was deleted. I wasn't hinting at this, I was stating it.

Hanna, you seem like a passionate person and maybe one day when you are more effectively able to separate your thoughts from your emotional reactions you will realize that the people you are defending are the used car salesmen of the medical community. well, worse than that really, but I think you get my point.


Regardless of how you feel about Christine and about anyone who questions the remarkably bad science behind HIV and "AIDS", the profiteering, and the outright fraud that the faithful here continue to be in denial about, one thing is true.

You will ALL die.

Let's just hope your deaths will not involve so much lying and disrespect.

Being a person who is HIV+ and on successful meds, I find the debate here (or even the fact that there is a debate), extremely unsettling.

Who can still argue that HIV doesn't cause immune damage and AIDS ? Who in their right mind would try to get people to belive HIV virus and immune damage isn't related ? It's time to "Geat Real" to all you Denialists out there. It's so sad to have a tool and not use it, be it your brain or an effective medication.

C'mon now, really. Use those brains. Polio virus causes paralysis, Leprosy bacteria cause disfiguing lesions, cold virus will cause a cold, AND HIV VIRUS DESTROYS THE IMMUNE SYSTEM in humans. HIV infection is a very complicated thing, but the outcome is usually simple "cause and effect." HIV virus causes immune damage. The facts are known, the HIV virus' life cycle has been studied, it's all been adequately documented in my view, and if you think that EVERYONE in the medical community is lying to you, that is often a sign of deeper mental issues.

Good God -- this is proven fact people. No T-Cells . . . no immune system . . . no defenses to infection = death. Pretty easy. Make your choice.

Christine Maggiore didn't want to know the HIV status of her daughter ? That poor child. Yes, I said it, and it's true. A needless, senseless death, because her mother chose NOT to believe the facts. If Eliza was my daughter, she would be alive today and on medication. But she's not, so she's not. RIP Eliza.

Everyone has the right to their own beliefs as to the sincerety of the medical establishment, and their utilization of those services. Baby Eliza is now deceased, most likely because her mother chose not to fight the treatable condition her daughter had. Sure, the mother won't be prosecuted, because it is her right to choose the medical care her family receives (or doesn't receive). I believe in that right. But I guess we'll never know if HIV caused Eliza's death, and I'm sure that's exactly how Christine wanted it, since even standard testing wasn't done. But how often do babies just drop dead in your world? In mine, such a death would be very unusual. But ignorning the facts did nothing to change the outcome. Christine soon followed Eliza into eternity. HIV isn't to blame? It's just a coincidence? OK, believe what you want, but in my world, HIV+ people monitored on successful treatment don't die as often as others who choose to abstain from medication. A solid fact to consider. Sure, people on medication die, but wouldn't they, when taking a medication for the remainder of life ?

In the end, Christine became a statistic in the column AGAINST her favorite argument. Good going Christine, but obviously not good enough, considering your current position.

Christine fought back hard and lived a long time holistically (like many would). I feel that successful handling of HIV infection is all about balance -- and if she was monitored by a knowledgeable professional, her T-cells probably would have shown no need for meds for all that long time. But when it was time for her to make the smart choice and use medication when she really needed it, her head was so far up her backside, she went to war without any armor. Sure, pneumonia killed her. Even the "regular" kind of lung bug kills pretty efficiently when you don't have an immune system to fight it. Such a waste.

and OK, I can almost for a second believe all of the crap about drug company conspiracy, or the crap about Peter Staley being a drug company shill, but none of the above is probably true.

I think the one quality of HIV infection that can be modified by anyone to suit their own purposes in an argument, is the TOTALLY INDIVIDUAL way that the HIV virus acts in any given person. HIV will chew through me much differently than it chews through the next person, and so on. Sure, some people do very well for a long time being HIV+ and feel no need for meds, but with proper monitoring, the slow degredation of immune system functioning is a FACT for most of the infected population.

The first meds used were harsh to the body, and yes, Christine's argument had merit in the days of toxic AZT. But those drug companies, like most for-profit enterprises, are always coming up with the "New and Improved" product for you to purchase.

Yes, and it sucks that all HIV+ persons are at the mercy of the drug companies -- but get used to it. Christine chose not to play the game, made the same choice for her daughter, and look where it got them. Dead.

Won't you Denialists say that from the current point-of-view of both Christine AND baby Eliza, that they maybe should have given meds a chance?

Dead is forever.

Rick, thanks for your pseudo concern.

You believe there exists a conspiracy whereby 99.99% of the entire science and medical community is involved yet offer no proof.

I know this. HIV positive men and women died in droves before HAART from PCP, KS, Toxo, PML and a couple other diseases exclusive to immune collapse. After HAART they stop dying IMMEDIATELY.

The science behind HIV/AIDS is more solid than the science supporting nearly every pathogen known to man. But even if it weren't, living through the birth of AIDS and witnessing what I have before and after HAART would make it extremely clear, even to a child, that testing positive for HIV is the SINGLE COMMON DENOMINATOR in otherwise healthy men, women and children developing life-threatening immune deficiency.

Notice how young these prominent denialists were who died: Maggiore (52), Pasquarelli (36), Christie (41), Zanetti (52), Bellefontaine (41), Anderlini (45), Brassard (37), Landis, (39), Wells (54), Burk (47), Sylvie Cousseau (41), Griffiths (46), Mokaba (43).

Individually, a fluke - collectively, a problem. Ironically, the greatest snake oil salesman of them all - Peter Duesberg - still lives at the age of 72, sans HIV of course!

Oh Rick, if you're HIV+ your future is so clear, truly. You'll either take HAART and live a normal lifespan or not and die - just like they all did. But we won't be writing about you - you'll be like so many other nameless, faceless denialists who've died for no reason other than willful ignorance and a terror of HIV that is simply irrational.

It's strange, I thought that the investigation into Christine's daughter's death was closed, and she was found to not be at fault, after a prolonged investigation that involved her neighbors, associates, friends, doctors...

I guess that doesn't fit your agenda to deceive people and misrepresent people who disagree with you. How very honest of you.

One thing was predictable. Christine Maggiore will never be allowed to die of HIV/AIDS.

Al-Bayati is likely busy right now figuring out whatever implausible cause of death he can conjure up, as long as it has nothing to do with immune deficiency, of course.

Dissidents cannot concede she died from HIV/AIDS as you'd have to accept it's possible for anyone to die of HIV/AIDS and they don't, right?

Ignorance is not bliss, it's lethal.

Boy, you've gotta admit, her very untimely death sucks if you're in the denial camp!

"One thing was predictable. Christine Maggiore will never be allowed to die of HIV/AIDS.

Al-Bayati is likely busy right now figuring out whatever implausible cause of death he can conjure up, as long as it has nothing to do with immune deficiency, of course."

It's funny that you would say that, since a lot of people in your camp have been saying for years that she didn't even really have HIV to begin with...

It is also very telling that you wouldn't have anything to say about the fact that if she DID have HIV, she managed to live nearly 20 years without the experimental, bogus medications that you claim are so necessary to survive.

But as usual all you CAN do is lie to support your little delusions.

Have some integrity.

Reading her sad obituary and the ramifications of her actions while alive takes me back to the dark ages of the disease. Most of my friends were dead and those who weren't were starting to die. So many of those wonderful people, men and women alike, turned to alternative and denialist therapies to no avial. There was nothing to stop the genocide. Not western medications, not dark arts, not certain diets or strange plant and fungus extracts. Nothing. Some of us, and I'm happy to be one, are the lucky ones to lived long enough (barely-in my case) to reap the rewards of the tortures of treatment. Happy New Year!
And take your meds.

Rick, there is no contradiction. Different people have different immune systems and life styles which affect the progression rate.

Progression from primary infection to aids can vary between 3-20 years and in come cases when the infected person has a certain gene combination there is no progression at all.

However, when someone has gotten to the stage that they have contracted opportunistic infections such as PCP, KS, toxo etc death will follow within a few months or years for sure.

I have suffered from PCP and other OIs myself and my health did not improve until I started haart. After a decade of treatment my lab values have steadily improved to the point that apart from the hiv infection all other values are within the "normal" range.

Without haart I would have been dead today, just like all aids-victims who haven't had access to modern antiretroviral regimens.

Todd Phillips writes: "It is also very telling that you wouldn't have anything to say about the fact that if she DID have HIV, she managed to live nearly 20 years without the experimental, bogus medications that you claim are so necessary to survive."

*********
Response:
*********

Many people with HIV infection live for decades before presenting with AIDS-defining illnesses. This is not because HIV does not cause AIDS -- it is because people are all different, and progression from primary infection to full-blown AIDS is highly variable, depending on (inter alia) the presence or absence of CCR5 receptors, general health, genetics, and other factors not yet known or quantified. Sure, many people with HIV infection live for decades before presenting with AIDS, and about 5% of people cannot become infected with HIV through the usual routes of transmission because of the absence of CCR5 receptors -- but the overwhelming majority of persons infected with HIV will, if left untreated, progress to AIDS. The fact that some people take longer than others to present with AIDS does not in any way detract from the reality that HIV causes AIDS.

"I thought that the investigation into Christine's daughter's death was closed, and she was found to not be at fault, after a prolonged investigation that involved her neighbours, associates, friends, doctors..."

*********
Response:
*********

In the USA, parents are generally permitted to make life-saving (and, sadly, life-denying) decisions for their children. The fact that Christine was not prosecuted for the death of her daughter does not mean that she was not responsible for that death; it merely means that, under our system of criminal justice, parents are generally permitted to make even the most improvident and reckless decisions with respect to the health of their children. It is disingenuous in the extreme for you to suggest that the decision not to prosecute Christine is proof of the fact that HIV infection and AIDS did not cause that death; this failure to prosecute was almost certainly a reflection of the fact that parents in the USA are granted wide latitude in terms of treating (or not treating) their children. If a child breaks an arm in school, the school authorities are not permitted even to give that child an aspirin without parental consent; this does not mean that the broken arm is imaginary.

What amazes and saddens me is that this debate is even taking place, given the success of HAART and the manner in which deaths from AIDS have plummeted in those countries where HAART is widely available. I mentioned earlier that a relative of mine in South Africa was almost dead by the time we managed to pull strings and get him on HAART (he was diagnosed before HAART became widely available in that country). After starting HAART, his viral load became undetectable, he started gaining weight, and he left off dying. He is now alive and reasonably well -- his diabetes (a pre-existing malady) is of greater concern to him than his HIV infection.

I realize that this anecdote is proof of nothing; but when anecdotes such as this become the norm, and when double-blind, placebo-controlled studies demonstrate the efficacy of the drugs used in HAART, this anecdote becomes illustrative.

The bottom line is that it is long past time that HIV denialists pulled their heads from their rear ends, woke up, and smelled the coffee. If you personally do not wish to receive treatment for HIV, that is your prerogative; however, when children are involved, decisions not to treat them are tantamount to murder.

PHILIP

The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function.--- F. Scott Fitzgerald

In the 80's I had a HIV+ bf who, while not a denialist about HIV and sickness, did hate most medicine. He deteriorated quickly after his first PCP. I learned about the esoteric treatments he was turning too, and thought some had value - maybe wouldn't (and didn't) save his life, but still miscellaneous values.

In the 90's I had a HIV+ bf who took whatever his excellent doctors gave him, survived to tri-therapy, and is doing well enough today.

When my 2000's bf seroconverted I just assumed that HAART would be the best treatment when it was time.

When I converted this year I read all the denialist stuff --- now of course its easy to read widely in "esoterica" with the Internet. I went pretty far and deep, reading and talking to people. I still think there's a lot of value in there. Though one needs some "information literacy" to evaluate the info one finds - and it could me mentioned, gently, that many people do not evaluate well.

I guess what I value however, isn't pure denialism - but the middle grown that might exist between denialist's "absolute" denials (that's what makes them "denialists" after all) and, for example, my ID doc's "absolute" indoctrination by his western science and medical education, and pharma's role in that.

So now its 2009 and most HIV+ people sick enough and then lucky enough to get treated with HAART are at least living well, or at least living, and most research still going toward pharmacological treatments, and perhaps rightly so.

And a few like Ms. (Mrs.?) Maggiore - so surrounded by meanings and significations and politics and agendas, that one wonders what is the actual true story around her own health (death) and that of her daughter. I don't know the whole story. Is it really fair to say she is responsible for South Africa's denialist period, for example? Hmmm. Mbeki had his own agenda. I'm not going to defend Maggiore, in fact her own words often turned my stomach. She was just one person, however and others have their own free will to come to their own beliefs and politics and choices.

When I read through the comments in this blog post, the vitriol saddens me. It seems so pointless.

The denialist's need to open up their mindsets, becoming not exactly "denialists" -- rather "gadflys" - encouraging a healthy skepticism and also encouraging alternative beliefs about "health" and "sickness" and complimentary or alternative treatments.

Those of us who, like me, pretty much put our stock in pharma/western science-medicine - could try to imagine what experiences and beliefs might lead one to a "denialist" position, and find the heart and intelligence to continue a respectful if heated dialogue.

I can't believe such spew towards Peter. He is quite right. I have many friends that died of AIDS prior to haart, and I myself am alive because of haart. and THANG GOD FOR IT!!!!!

Shame to all you denialists and those going after peter SHAME

michael
Melbourne
AUSTRALIA

Todd:

Christine lived 16 years without medications, not 20. And that's not the least bit contrary to the orthodox predictions.

Some people's CD4 cells drop into double digits in 3 years and others not for twenty. That is exactly what the orthodox DOES say.

Please spread your misinformation elsewhere. After all, that was Christine's job and she's fortunately dead now.

Phillip: In response to your comment: "No amount of information or cold fact will change the mind of a person who is in the grip of a delusion." At least you came to one accurate conclusion ... this is so very true of ALL who believe & base their judgement AND precious lives on the fraudulent claims made by Robert Gallo!

Hanna: In response to your: "...on a site that accepts what 99.9% of the science and medical establishment has concluded..." You have much still to learn, especially about who to trust my dear!

[deleted promotion of denialist materials]

Then determine who really are the ones in TOTAL DENIAL!
Christine Maggiore was absolutely RIGHT in her firm beliefs, and I highly commend her for relentlessly attempting to help you folk learn the real scientific TRUTH, as opposed to that fraudulently 'concluded' by HIV and so-called AID$ meds manufacturers & their vast array of allies.

HAVE BEEN POSITIVE FOR OVER 23 YEARS. NEVER
SICK A DAY. FROM THE DAYS OF AZT,I BELIVE THAT
AS AN ADULT YOU HAVE THE FREEDON TO TAKE OR
NOT MEDS.
BUT WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS COUNTRY,WE BELIVE
IN CHILDREN RIGHTS,YOU DON'T SEND YOUR CHILD
SCHOOL THEY PUT YOU IN JAIL.YOU ARE POSITIVE
AND DONT HAVE YOUR CHILD TESTED.
TESTING SHOULD BE MANDATORY.
SCIENCE IS THERE NOT ONLY TO MAKE MONEY BUT TO
SAVE LIVES.
IT IS SAD TO SEE A CHILD DIE A SUCH EARLY AGE.
WE HAVE COLLEGE STUDENTS BORN HIV GOING HEALTY
AND STRONG,BECAUSE OF MEDS.
THIS IS SO SAAADD

@nnie: I'd rather trust 99.9% of the scientists on the planet with regard to their extensive research, findings and therapies on HIV/AIDS over blindly believing a fringe few yahoos selling snake oil and claiming "ridiculous" health while their few cohorts drop like flies. Their Queen Bee just died 3 1/2 years after she neglected to hospitalize her daughter until the kid stopped breathing.

Nothing's going to change. And you know what, it's actually not a bad thing.

People stupid enough to argue with overwhelming evidence and just basic common sense are really better off dead. The gene pool suffers every time one of the nutty conspiracy theorists reproduces.

Me, I'll just sit back and laugh at the irony that the tiny list of prominent denialist gets smaller every few months, just as the list of denialists dying of life-threatening OI's gets bigger.

Justin B Smith decided to make this video in response to a woman who has recently passed away. Christine Maggiore, an activist who vehemently denied that HIV causes AIDS, declined to take anti-AIDS drugs and sued Los Angeles County for stating that her 3-year-old daughter succumbed to AIDS-related pneumonia, has died. She was 52. There have been many people that have commented and e-mail him because of Justin's HIV Journal. They have e-mailed me that what I'm doing is wrong and have told him to stop taking his HIV Meds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7txtstmk3xw

I want to address three issues here. The first is: Where was the treating physician of the little girl, who should have reported the child's obvious protracted illness to the child protection authorities? Why didn't the state intervene to remove the child from what was obviously a case of parental neglect? Frankly, I would have removed both children. I don't care two pins about the mother and her death. She was an adult and could choose to let her ego rule her mind. Her children, however, are/were defenceless and would have suffered needlessly.

My second issue is in regard to denialism. It's fine for you denialists to believe whatever you want to believe. Find a nice little quiet corner and wait to die in it. I really don't care for or about you. You've made your bed, now lie in it. But once your thoughts about HIV leave your head and are communicated to anybody else, knowing full well your beliefs are just self-lying, then you should consider yourself guilty of murder. I don't care if you want to nit-pick about whether it's the legal definition of murder, or not. As soon as you communicate falsehoods about HIV to anyone, and convince another HIV+ person not to seek and maintain treatment, then you're guilty of murder if they die from HIV. Live with it. It's what you want.

Finally, I don't care if it's the American hubris of Ms. Maggiore or the African ignorance of Thabo Mbeki, it all boils down to that essential evil - narcissism. Denialism is the belief that regardless of facts and the vastly superior education, experience and wisdom of countless others, what YOU believe is right, simply and only because it is YOU who believes it. The vastly superior education, wisdom and experience of countless others count for nothing and are wrong, simply and only because they do not come from YOU.

In ending, I'll just leave the denialists with these visuals:

HIV--->AIDS--->DEATH
HIV--->HAART--->LIFE
EGO--->DENIAL--->DEATH

Shame on every last one of the denialists for spreading falsehoods and fostering death. Keep up the good work, Peter, and don't let the nut-bars get you down.
Mark

People like Annie who are so vehemently taking up for Ms. Maggiore are just like Ms. Maggiore and they will never admit they are wrong. Not even on their death bed OR after allowing their own flesh and blood to die.
Just as Annie says that the Re-Thinking AIDS group was not responsible for the deaths in S. Africa, when Harvard did the study and The New York Times reported it. Yeah, I think Annie is much more credible than Harvard or NYT.
J. Todd DeShong
www.dissidents4dumbees.blogspot.com

Mark MacDonald asked: "Where was the treating physician of the little girl, who should have reported the child's obvious protracted illness to the child protection authorities?"

Excellent question Mark. And the answer is very interesting indeed. Maggiore had 3 pediatricians for her children (seriously, who has 3 doctors from different practices as pediatrician to their kids?) for this very reason. You see, when Eliza Jane developed a protracted illness, Jay Gordon (one of the pediatricians) saw her and said the child was sick but not terribly. His office called her days later to see if the girl was better and Maggiore LIED and said the girl was better - yet she took the girl to another doctor (Paul Fleiss) in that time, who also reported she was sick. And weeks later, just before her death, she had yet another doctor from out-of-town check out the girl (Philip Incao) out. Maggiore was many things, not the least of which was crafty.

It's difficult as a doctor to develop a holistic picture of what's going on with a patient if the patient jumps around from doctor to doctor and doesn't continue to be followed up by one so that one doctor can measure progress or decline. Going to other doctors allows no benchmark to be set and monitored.

So, of course, Dr. Gordon thought the girl improved and wasn't concerned but he has stated a great deal of remorse over his treatment of the case and claims that had Maggiore taken the girl back to him, still ill and knowing that the girl was at risk for HIV infection during birth and breatfeeding, that he would have forced the issue of testing (i.e., involved the authorities) and he wonders if that wasn't the case for Maggiore not returning with the sick girl.

http://justiceforej.com/RyanInterview.html

The interview in the link from gay.com's Benjamin Ryan with Christine Maggiore describes the sick game adequately.

Although I do not agree with all of Ms. Maggiore's views and ideas I think think she was a good person who truly believed what she stood for and there was truth in so many of the things that she stood for. I imagine that many of the negative commenters here only knew the Christine Maggiore of headline news fame.

There are two sides to everything and thanks to her a lot of important discussion has been raised.

The world will NOT be a better place without her and I am saddened that anyone on this site would write such a thing.

Hi,
I can recall arguing with the followers of the imbecile Duesberg on the web BEFORE THE INTERNET was an infant! Back on old USENET on alt.misc.aids and the Duesberg folllowers were in their peak in 1992- and they sucked this women in to their ranks. SHe sounds like she was not so innocent herself.

THANK GOD I DID NOT LISTEN to Duesberg etc. back then as opposed my saviors at Project Inform and O listened to Drs. had 2 kids and still kept my wife and kids safe and NEGATIVE as opposed to this lady who if she simply took even the awful AZT could have kept her daughter negative...I had to go to far greater lengths but its not the point here---i am sad for her to be sucked in by someone who has a platform from a university as a biologist who is IMHO a murderer not a theorist.DUesberg? I can not belive you have not changed your stupid theories-a cure is upon us targeting HIV in cells and you still say drugs etc.
Well baby 25 year 14 on meds and still alive and well Peter Doucheberg...sorry for this misguided women's suffering and false hope in a false prophet.
25 years and still here....
-a Peter Duesberg hater...i never hate...but make an exception for pop scientists who suck in innocent victims with advice that so happens to kill them..

ABC News has just issued an article about Christine's death. They say:

"The Los Angeles coroner's office has yet to determine if her pneumonia was AIDS-related. If it was, it could serve as an ironic end to her work...."

Notice the word "if" there. ABC are wierdos who wait for the facts before jumping to conclusions. Go figure, eh?

Some people here just KNOW it was PCP pneumonia. They just KNOW. I think that speaks for itself.

But while we wait, here's a thought.

Christine recorded a podcast with David Crowe on the 27 November, 2008. The broadcast opens with a few minutes intro by Christine.

As a broadcaster, I have to abandon audio shows if I have any kind of bronchial complaint. The breathlessness sounds just terrible on audio.

But surprisingly for a person about to die in weeks allegedly from PCP, Christine sounds just great. No shortness of breath. Beautiful clear enunciation all the way.

You can tell if a person has a breathing issue because the pauses for intakes for breath -and their frequency- are obvious. Find the podcast on the net.

Same applies to her daughter Eliza Jane, who weeks before her alleged PCP death was puffing away like any healthy child on one of those extending party blowers.

But you can discount this, if you are one of those who just KNOW.

By the way, I've noticed some lonely mainstream AIDS posters here with less extreme views and I salute them.

Even if you reject the skeptic view that HIV is not the cause of that broad group of diseases lumped together as AIDS, you might find that skeptics of the mainstream do have valid criticisms.

For example, with therapies causing huge mortality and morbidity, perhaps we all might agree that these therapies are NOT good enough.

To paraphrase: Smith and Wesson therapy for cancer will ensure you don't die of cancer.

We should not let extremists prevent all criticism of existing treatments. But I don't really expect vigorous criticism on a website bedecked with AIDS drug banner adverts.

I'm less interested in arguing AIDS causation than in ensuring that much more effective therapies replace the current Pharma disaster.

The level of deaths and disability from current therapies ARE an unmitigated disaster.

People diagnosed with AIDS conditions deserve more than complacent back-patting of the vested interests for the so-called success of HAART.

Perhaps that's a goal moderates could agree on.

Fintan, dear, her own husband said she was diagnosed with pneumonia a week and a half before her death. Her death is extremely suggestive of PCP but even if it's not, so what?! Otherwise healthy 52 year old women do NOT die of pneumonia in the United States, okay?! Women with immune deficiency, however, do.

As for Eliza Jane, she died of PCP, secondary to AIDS. This isn't "alleged," it was the cause of death, period. And she WAS HIV positive - they found P24 antigen in her brain. CASE CLOSED!

Ultimately Fintan, you're not a remotely reliable source because you're CLOSED OFF to all possibilities. In your view it was impossible for Christine to have severe immune deficiency because that would require a culprit and given she tested positive for HIV and you don't believe HIV causes AIDS, you're in a pickle - so Christine MUST have died from something other than an opportunistic infection or you're out of business.

Science is open to all outcomes. People with HIV die all the time of causes other than AIDS and their death certificates are listed as such (my HIV+ neighbor died of REAL anaphylaxis after a bee sting two years ago - and that's what the coroner listed as cause of death!). It is only the HIV=AIDS deniers that insist all people who test positive for HIV die of diseases other than OI's.

Let's be clear here -- Maggiore doesn't need a PCP pneumonia diagnosis to have died from AIDS. All pneumonia's occur almost exclusively in the immune depressed (the very young, the very old, and those with immune suppression conditions like AIDS or during chemotherapy).

She was HIV positive. She died very quickly from some sort of pneumonia. This doesn't happen in healthy 52 year olds.

She died of AIDS -- this isn't rocket science.

I noticed neither Hanna nor Peter addressed Fintan's remarks about more effective therapies. Instead, the interest seems to be in keeping this issue strictly about Christine's sins.

Of course Peter works for Pharma, so this shouldn't be surprising.

To all of you out there taking the meds, there is a better way. You deserve better than your suffering. I truly hope you find it.

Rick -- didn't think we needed to state the obvious, and what most of our readers already know. In case you haven't heard, there have been major treatment advances during the last few years. Taking HAART it 2008 is much easier than it was in 1996, let alone the earlier years. Unfortunately, denialists like yourself love to pretend it's still 1987, the year AZT was approved.

But why waste my time trying to explain -- I'm just shilling for pharma, right? Such a convenient accusation to use against those who actually follow the latest research.

Hanna wrote: "Otherwise healthy 52 year old women
do NOT die of pneumonia in the United States, okay?!"

In the United States, about one of every twenty people with pneumococcal pneumonia die.
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumonia )

Hanna wrote: "Her death is extremely suggestive
of PCP but even if it's not, so what?!"

You are inadvertently raising an interesting point. Bacterial or mycoplasmal pneumonias are as 'opportunistic' as any other disease, but for some reason it is PCP pneumonia which is the typical form associated with a HIV+ diagnosis.

That makes one wonder if simple immune deficiency is the root cause, as the other more common forms of pneumonia should be appearing more frequently in HIV+ individuals.

The ubiquity of PCP in AIDS patients is why so many are jumping to the conclusion that was the type from which Christine was suffering.

But as I pointed out, Christine's healthy respiratory function in an audio recorded around four weeks prior to her death would suggest it was not PCP pneumonia. Because median survival times in California for AIDS diagnosed individuals where PCP is the first disease to present can be measured in months and years - not weeks.
( http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/146/2/115 )

The important point here is that it IS extremely rare for a person to die of pneumonia at home.

The symptoms of a severe pneumonia, including dry or wet cough, fever and/or progressive shortness of breath mean that a pneumonia patient invariably shows up in ER suffering from overwhelming respiratory distress, long before life-threatening circulatory failure.

I think it would be prudent not to jump to conclusions as to the cause of death in this case because of the significantly atypical circumstances.

Hey Rick:

Christine IS THE TOPIC, not better therapies.

Further, I didn't bother to comment because the man who claims HIV DOES NOT CAUSE AIDS is suggesting a need for "more effective therapies?" This is the TYPICAL Maggiore deflection strategy Fintan's adopted.

After all, why would anyone need more effective therapies for HIV when it doesn't exist?

Now, back to Christine . . .

Yes Peter, that's precisely true about her death. The denialists are saying she died from acute pneumonia. An otherwise healthy 52 year old woman living in America died from pneumonia in the blink of an eye without massive immune suppression.

Yeah, okay, whatever.

Hey Fintan:

Do you mind providing evidence that PCP, PML, Toxoplasmosis, CMV Retinitis and Cryptococcal meningitis occur in otherwise healthy HIV negative adults?

Pick any group you want - drug addicts, crack whores, the homeless, inmates, stressed and depressed parents of deceased children, murderers - anyone! It's your pick!

Can you do that Fintan? Can you?

Yes Peter, pharma seems to have found a way to make better customers. Shouldn't be too surprising, in fact this is the logical outcome of any profit-driven health care system. Don't sell them death, sell them life, and then give them something in between, so they keep coming back. I wonder if you are able to turn off your salesman pitch for even a moment! It sounds insincere and is very off-putting.

Hanna, we are not talking about HIV therapies. People get sick for a variety of reasons, and sometimes need treatment from a medical professional. Dissidents believe that toxic drugs are not the answer for illness. Wacky, huh?

Rick, AGAIN, you're deflecting from the subject - which is that another denialist just bought the farm.

How many more otherwise healthy young men and women have to die in the prime of their lives from rare and fatal opportunistic infections their HIV negative cohorts never get before the rest in your sandbox employ a modicum of critical thinking and just plain old common sense.

Christine Maggiore killed her daughter and then herself in the name of conspiracy theories. Woo Hoo, good for her.

Peter wrote:
"She died very quickly from some sort of
pneumonia. This doesn't happen in
healthy 52 year olds."

How do you know she died from pneumonia?

The cause of death is unknown the coroner's office says.

But maybe you are on the point of finally getting it.

Not only does this not happen in healthy 52 year olds.
This doesn't happen in UNHEALTHY 52 year olds.

NOBODY dies very quickly from ANY kind of pneumonia.

They die in an ER on a ventilator, on an IV.
And even then it takes days to happen.

Christine was clearly healthy four weeks before when recording the audio. If she had a serious pneumonia of ANY kind, she would have been in ER from the get go. If the pneumonia had worsened she would HAVE to go to ER.

A person dying of pneumonia is drowning.
It's the sort of thing you notice.
You don't die in your sleep from pneumonia.

I'm not saying Christine died of any pneumonia.
Acute, PCP or otherwise.

I am saying simply the factual situation:
Nobody right now knows the cause of death.

Again I caution it would be prudent not to jump to conclusions as to the cause of death in this case. NOBODY dies very quickly, at home, from ANY kind of pneumonia.

"Christine Maggiore killed her daughter and then herself in the name of conspiracy theories. Woo Hoo, good for her."

Hanna, you are a heartless [deleted]. You are exactly the kind of person who would have fit in so well during the witch hunts, tying the skirts of women so they would float, thus "proving they were witches".

Just because everyone does not believe in your "religion" does not mean they deserve to die.

How about you go do some research rather than spewing hatred? How about you show some compassion? Ohhh I forgot your "religion" is based on taking the "communion AZT", You push HAART but you have no Heart. You are a Pharma [deleted].


Moderator note: we've deleted some of the language above. Any additional comments that include crude language will be deleted.

Here here Kathy. That pharma attracts this sort of person to their cause only helps to show their true face.

Fintan:

Celia Farber has documented an email from Christine where she says herself said this illness caused her to lose her appetite and then she "started to have trouble breathing" at which point her doctor gave her a script for an x-ray that found bi-lateral bronchial pneumonia. And, clearly, her illness was going on for weeks - not the overnight illness/death you want to convince everyone this was.

Incidentally, a former colleague had her last round of chemotherapy 2 weeks before Thanksgiving a few years back. The Monday before Thanksgiving she came into the office to wish us well, against her doctor's advice as her immune system was still in a dangerous place (oh those meaningless surrogate markers, right?). But she looked great and said she felt great. That was MONDAY. On Wednesday I got a call that Linda died just after midnight Tuesday night from sepsis. So here was a woman who I personally saw and spoke with on Monday, looked great, went home and later that night told her parents she was feeling a little under the weather. By noon on Tuesday she had a fever and REFUSED to go to the hospital against her Oncologist's advice because she wanted to be home for Thanksgiving, even though he warned her a fever in someone with her lymphocyte count could be lethal. She died less than 36 hours after I saw a seemingly healthy woman from sepsis.

Now, does that happen in someone not suffering from massive immune deficiency? No, it doesn't. But it can and does happen to untreated HIV positive people. If Christine's CD4 count was in the double digits, she very well could have died rapidly from HIV - or a host of other OI's.

As for dying at home, that's what happens if you refuse to go to the hospital.

Hey Kathy:

I'm an atheist. Neither those who practice Wicca nor Catholicism bother me in the least. Do what you wish but harm others and that's another story.

Christine Maggiore convinced a great many people and the President of South Africa to cease life-saving antiviral treatment. Do I think her death is now tragic? Umm.....nope; satisfying is more like it.

Hey, I like this game. Let's see. Kathy's religion is HIV Denialism, her communion is quack Hulda Clark's "zapper" and her angel is Christine Maggiore. Oh Kathy, please, please tell me you're HIV+ and refuse meds, please?! C'mon, it's 2009 - throw me a bone and put a smile on my face, will ya?

"Do what you wish but harm others and that's another story."

You may be a "conventional religion atheist" but you are far from atheist when it comes to the religion of medicine and pharma, you obviously believe everything they spew out.

So you are a "godless" person, that explains a lot of what you have written here.

Sorry to disappoint you and ruin your evil celebration - I am a healthy person with flu at the moment.

Life is a game to you?

Here fetch .........

Enjoy........

But be careful you never know what toxic medications I have laced it with.

"Grief and the Body

Grieving is an individual and prolonged event which can take an immense toll on the human body. It is normal for grieving individuals to be focused on their emotions as they learn to live with their loss. It is important that these individuals are monitored for any signs of physical illness or deterioration.

Individuals who are in the grieving process are more susceptible to illness and disease than their peers. When an individual suffers a major loss or shock, the autonomic nervous system goes into stress mode, more commonly known as “flight or fight.” Steroids are produced at higher levels which increase the heart rate and blood pressure. This is a normal response to stress. However, the grief process is not short or brief. When this surge of steroids is prolonged indefinitely, it can diminish one’s health.

While this nervous activity is occurring inside the body, the grieving individual may show signs of lethargy and tiredness. Individuals may be unable to sleep, or have sleep disruption. They may experience shortness of breath, loss of appetite, irritability, and headaches.

Prolonged stress to the nervous system greatly impacts the immune system. It can cause a major decrease in the body’s ability to fight infection. Grieving individuals are more prone to colds and contracting minor illnesses. A grieving individual may find that any pre-existing health conditions they have may go awry. It is important to schedule routine medical checkups during this time.

It is important that grieving individuals have a support system who can step in and urge them to seek medical treatment, if necessary. While each individual grieves in their own way, below is a list of physical conditions which may occur:

* Crying/Weeping
* Upset Stomach
* Loss of Appetite
* Dry Mouth
* Easily Startled
* Sighing
* Sleep Disturbances
* Anxiety
* Tightness in Chest
* Breathlessness
* High Blood Pressure
* Heart Palpitations
* Lowered Immune System
* Fatigue
* Missed Menstrual Cycle
* Complications to Pre-Existing Health Conditions
* Weight Loss
http://www.mamashealth.com/grief/body.asp "

Dear Moderator Peter - I see you don't like the word "w***e" LOL - Wonder why that is then??? Let me guess LOL

By the way you missed it in one of Hanna's posts which I quote below:

"Do you mind providing evidence that PCP, PML, Toxoplasmosis, CMV Retinitis and Cryptococcal meningitis occur in otherwise healthy HIV negative adults?

Pick any group you want - drug addicts, crack whores, the homeless, inmates, stressed and depressed parents of deceased children, murderers - anyone! It's your pick!

Can you do that Fintan? Can you?"

What's good for the goose is good for the gander - don't you agree Peter?? So delete her w***e word too please.

Ohhh and Hanna I'll be back with the information you requested just lining it all up now. Are ya ready dear????

Wow Kathy, mamashealth.com - impressive source. Who does your PAP, the mechanic?

As for the unimpressive list of grief related "conditions," notice that life threatening opportunistic infections are absent. That's because heartbreak and stress sucks and you may feel like you'll die - yet, you don't. You get through it, like everyone else (or you put a gun to your head).

Hey, you go ahead and keep attending the Church of Denialism - soon you'll be the only member.

Yeah, I get that you're "healthy" but have you ever tested positive for HIV? (I mean, it's harmless, right?)

And I do appreciate you going to the trouble to find what I requested since Maggiore, Dunne and Crowe always came up empty. I'll be waiting.

Kathy:

Seriously, it's great (and funny) that you're going to try to unearth some evidence for me.

You know how it is when you're not a denialist. I've ask these guys for what should be a terribly simply request (if their allegations are even remotely on point) and I wait and wait, but nothing. Then, of course, the f***ers go and die on me and I have to go searching for another denialist who might come up with the goods and, well, it happens again. It's hard to debate people when they're not around long enough to hold up their end, ya know?

Which is why I'd like to know your HIV status. No sense in wasting my time. LOL

What's you status?

I have been through the death of a child so f**k off talking s**t about something you know f**k all about.

And actually I have decided not to post my research here, you can go search for it, only thing is you might have to visit a website that will be like garlic to a vampire - you being the vampire of course and the website will be a dissident website hahahaha

FU

Quoting Fintan Dunne:
"I'm less interested in arguing AIDS causation than in ensuring that much more effective therapies replace the current Pharma disaster.

The level of deaths and disability from current therapies ARE an unmitigated disaster."


A treatment not targeting the cause of aids is not an effective treatment so a good start is to find out the cause (CD4 depletion due to an HIV infection) and then do scientific tests on any treatments to see that hiv virus levels decrease and CD4 levels increase.

Haart will do this and is therefore effective. It would be nice with more available drugs with few side effects, but the drug companies are working on this.

If the therapies you (Fintan) refer to actually worked you can be sure that they would be widespread by now. There is a lot of money available though international organisations and risk capitalists if you find a treatment which is scentifically proven to work.

Also I'm sure that India, Brazil or other countries currently making their own aidsmeds would love to invest in something that works without any patent problems.


I think that the big pharmaceutical companies should act differently than today and it IS a problem that they are very good at pushing their own interests in political forums. However, that does not take away the fact that the pharma companies does produce a lot of effective drugs for different conditions.

Guys,
I see that no one here is posting their status. I can tell you that I am an HIV+ man for 14 years. I was taking meds before Maggiore even knew she was poz. (And BTW, has she ever posted her HIV results? I know she has stated that she was poz, then neg, then indeterminante!!) Whatever. I do not believe it until I see it.
Back to my status. I have been taking HIV meds since I found out I was poz. I have been on a couple of meds that gave me nausea, diarrahea and general malaise. However, my recent med change I was 100% asymptomatic and my T-Cells have never been higher (including my CD4:CD8 ratio) and my viral load never lower. I feel great. I have no body dysmorphia!! I am what you denialists would call (if you told the truth) the exception (to your false) rule!!
People need to take control of their disease and kick it in the ass as I have. I am two years away from Maggiore's death!! And I guarantee you I will still be here to see my nephew play professional football!
Sincerely,
J. Todd DeShong
www.dissidents4dumbees.blogspot.com

Todd, forget about being around to watch your nephew play professional football, you'll be around to watch him collect social security.

HIV is NOT a death sentence, unless you ignore it. And clearly, you don't.

Here's to your very healthy, long life Todd! :)

Oh Kathy, how predictable! It became apparent to you, rather quickly, that evidence of HIV negative Americans with PCP, MAC, PML, KS, CMV Retinitis and Cryptococcal meningitis doesn't exist. Yeap, that's right - those cases do not exist.

How tragic. The very cornerstone of the denialist argument, that the above OI's are caused by illicit drug use, not sleeping right and stress, isn't substantiated in the least.

Kathy, what does the death of your child have to do with anything (unless you did what Christine Maggiore did and neglected the child's HIV)?

Hanna. The baiting style and the vitriol are a trollish yawn. The urge to wound transparent. Embrace the confidence to dialog not throw rocks. Soon I hope. Peace.

Chris wrote:
"However, that does not take away the fact that
the pharma companies does produce a lot of
effective drugs for different conditions."

Indeed they do. And yet even there we find subtleties.

After a childhood plagued by asthma, I cheered the Pharma company which discovered Salbutamol. I thought new era inhalers were a gift from the gods. But as the years passed, the underlying issue never addressed began to destroy my health again.

Then one day marvelous day I found a vet on the net. (A mere vet - no less! dogtorj.com) I read for hours entranced. Next day I junked the gluten and the casein (wheat 'n dairy). And entered a world of stunning good health. Sans inhalers.

Pharma had treated my symptoms. But a vet called Dr. John Symes had uncovered my cause. Bless him.

It would be nice to spread the word to others who today are afflicted as I was. But in the interim, the vendors of inhalers have gained a total lock-down on the patient groups. The asthmatics regard those vendors as Gods.

And I cannot reach them. You see I cannot patent the Truth, and so I cannot launch expensive marketing to show asthmatics the simple dietary change to free them from dependance on Pharma.

I could of course approach these Pharma vendors and tell them the good news. They would surely see the light and quickly spread the word themselves.

"We are winding down our inhaler companies," they would tell the astonished asthmatics. "Our work is done! Change your diet, junk our inhalers and be FREE!"

They would. Wouldn't they?
Yes. And pigs would fly.

So here we remain.
The shareholders in the inhaler vendors are happy.
The patients are happy with their Pharma gods.

But the Truth....
Ah, yes... the Truth.

That's the untold story.
Truth.... is not profitable.

Tell me that AIDS is different.
That treatment tackles cause not symptoms.
That nobility of purpose trumps profit.

That the Truth is surely already known.

Ignoring Hanna who is a cold heartless c

I too have a story to tell, one where I contracted MRSA in Intensive Care following a tragic road traffic accident which claimed the life of one of my son's and seriously injured myself and my youngest son. I spent 2 years in a wheelchair, went through numerous surgeries to mend or have supporting structures inserted into my legs and pelvis. It took 4 years of struggle, hospitalization and pain to get back walking again with the help of mobility aids (note I said mobility aids).

In '97 I developed a serious skin condition which I was hospitalized for and I spent 3 years attending a dermatologist. I had to bandage my legs to prevent my clothes sticking to my skin because of the serum that seeped through my pores.

I believed in doctors and I believed in pharma and trusted them to help me recover. My condition was treated with oral and topical steroids, when one did not work another was prescribed and on and on it went. I could not straighten out my fingers or the skin would crack and spurt blood.

All this time I was trying to come to terms with the death of my 16 and a half year old and trying to help my youngest son recover from his injuries, come through depression from the trauma and the grief of losing his older brother.

After 4 years dealing with the issues from the RTA and 3 years after developing the skin condition I took responsibility for my own health and stopped attending the dermatologist. I changed my diet, stopped using many of the products I had been using on my skin for years, did my own research and today my skin is perfect.

As a result of the MRSA which I contracted while on life support in Intensive Care I suffered abscesses and infections but through working on my diet, building up my immune system and stopping using steroids and antibiotics, today I am healthy again.

That is my experience - my son died in a road traffic accident, the trauma took it's toll on my health and the health of my youngest son, but we took responsibility for our own recover, with some help from a few good doctors and other health professionals and here I am :)

Back to Horrible Hanna - I have not received an answer from you yet - what is your status + or - ?????

Ohh and one more question:

Who pays you to dance on the graves of dead people and push pharma???

Oh Kathy, you big crying baby. You had a bad experience with a hospital, pharma and "doctors," then great, DO NOT return to them EVER.

But you will, as all hypocrites do, RUN FULL SPEED when you're faced with another serious injury/illness. Why not turn to the holistic community and drink their herbal teas, inhale the "oxygen therapy," and consume the organic meals while meditating.

Just look how phenomenally well the holistic approach went for Christine Maggiore and her daughter (and the denialists before her who are now worm food).

Conspiracy theorists spend an awful lot of time yapping about unsubstantiated, fantastic events they wish happened because their worlds are clearly a yawn-fest. Except, Fintan, the World Trade Center - we all know the towers were never there to begin with, so how could jets have flown into non-existent buildings? Leave it to George Bush, that filthy liar - why he ever admitted not finding WMD's is beyond me! I had a friend, Ronnie Ruben, who worked in Tower One above the supposed "fire." True, I never saw him after that but I think he was paid off by the Bush government to disappear along with a couple thousand other people and pretend to have been killed in their fictitious offices. I'll never believe it happened!

Kathy, it's so refreshing that your conviction doesn't waiver despite fact and reason. It's a nod to your demented brain that 99.9% of HIV scientists, clinicians and patients could or would be paid off by big pharma to tell gross lies.

The denialists are a disciple of Jim Jones. It doesn't matter how much critical thinking and skepticism you're asking to impart, the holy grail for you is in the conspiracy itself - the cult - you're made for it; easy prey. The ONLY event which ends the wild delusions in your ilk is that final gulp of Kool-Aid. May it be sooner than later.

As of July 2008 I have been HIV positive for 25 years. The last fourteen of those years I have had an AIDS diagnosis. I believe I am alive today because of HIV medications. No one talked me into starting HAART treatment. I made that decision on my own. Despite the side effects and various health problems over the years I do not regret the choice I made. Christian Scientist's do not believe in treating themselves medically. Should they be forced to take medical treatment to save their own lives? Each of us must decide how to live our lives and for how long we choose to be alive.

Mr. Fintan Dunne,
How can you truly accuse Hanna of vitriol?
I could accuse you of many things, but I am above that. I will only write about the truth.
You are not a scientist. You have a financial as well as "reputation" at stake in people following these "re-thinkers". This is evidenced with your very assertion regarding your "interview" with Ms. Maggiore. An interview that I listened to, and was astounded as to the pathetic "softball" questions you lobbed to this woman and the way in which she lead you around by your nose. You are NO reporter or investigator.
Also, you state how happy you were with "Big Pharma" for the inhalers that enabled you to breath normally and completely enhanced your way of life. However, once you "found" what was causing your distress, you turned your back on the scientists who invented the inhalers that enabled you to live such a great quality of life. What a hypocrite.
Did you ever stop to think that asthma might have different causes for different sufferers? Or are you so arrogant, as most "re-thinkers", to believe that your experience is THE experience of all?
Those "Big Pharma" sceintists who invented that inhaler, probably enhanced the quality of life of millions of asthma sufferers, but because they did not pinpoint the REASON that you suffereed, then their contribution to others is null?
Is that a correct statement? You arrogant....never mind. I believe your post speaks for the hypocrisy of who you are.
I just hope those less intelligent than myself can see it, and are not swayed by your one-sided opinion!!
Sincerely,
J. Todd DeShong
www.dissidents4dumbees.blogspot.com

Peter...you're getting sloppy. Thus far there are three separate posters on this thread who have admitted taking AIDS meds for 14 years, and two of these have said that they have been positive for 25 years. I'm sure your bosses at Pharma would be none too happy with this lack of creativity.

I just read a post from Michael Geiger, which I unfortunately had to visit Todd's blog to get to, and that episode of Law and Order SVU based on Christine was worse than I thought. Not only does "Eliza Jane" die, but "Christine" also dies at the end. This episode was aired on October 28th of last year. Here is a summary:

http://allthingslawandorder.blogspot.com/2008/10/law-order-retro-lifeless.html

So two months before her death, Christine is crucified on national television. How absolutely horrific. I don't even have words.

To all of you who have been spitting on Christine for years, I encourage you to take a moment to step back and realize what has been done to this woman. I urge you to take stock of the visceral reactions you feel in regards to this issue, and attempt to detach yourselves from these and truly reflect on your actions.


Wow..won't the medical community be relieved to find out that they can treat MRSA and HIV/AIDS with diet and lifestyle change? What a relief!


Honestly. Where do these people come from?

Actually Diane (I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you aren't "Jack" or some other fake poster...but Diane would logically follow Jack, wouldn't she ;) ), it's quite the opposite. The health care industry is threatened by people who propose alternatives to their expensive and ineffective solutions. After all, they aren't working for free.

If they weren't threatened, they wouldn't resort to the kind of abuse that you have seen on this thread.

Where do we come from? A better question you might ask yourself is why would so many people disagree with something so seemingly iron clad as HIV/AIDS? You can come to one of two conclusions, that we are all just out of our minds (the easy answer) or that the explanations offered by those who promote mainstream versions of the HIV/AIDS phenomenon have some serious holes that are worth examining further. The latter is the conclusion I came to, and more and more are coming to every day.

Rick:

You're right, it was the Law & Order episode that upset Christine so badly that she developed severe immune deficiency and a fatal OI.

If it wasn't that, it was the herbal cleanse she did. If it wasn't that, it was the exasperation over being rejected to foster or adopt a child (per Celia Farber). If not that, it was the anniversary of her daughter's death. If not that it was because it was raining in Van Nuys more than usual.

Pick whichever you like.

People all over this planet have experienced stress and agony over the death's of their children, persecution, poverty and somehow the enormous majority live into old age - except those who also have HIV.

Go figure!

Rick,
I actually hate that Ms. Maggiore went thru all she did. However, you can not deny that she brought it all on herself. Including her own death. Yet she could never take complete responsibility. She just blamed the media, the orthodoxy...everyone but herself!!
Why are you people so far in denial that you cannot see nor grasp what is staring you in the face?
Also, I will tell you why there "are so many 're-thinkers'", it is because:
a) they do not understand the science.
b) NOT believing is their source of fame/income
i.e. Maggiore herself, Janine Roberts, Henry Bauer, etc...
c) they are HIV+ people who are scared/desparate.
Although I am sure you will disagree.
J. Todd DeShong
www.dissidents4dumbees.blogspot.com

I am not a HIV person but know quite a few people that have HIV, some fullblown AIDS. All of them are on medication and doing well. I think the anti meds groups should bear in mind that ALL meds have some form of side effects, even disprins! What a shocker, the thing is to find the right meds for you as a person but sometimes you will be between the devil and the deep blue sea. I have for interest sake, awareness and teaching followed the Hiv debate with great interest, especially this one. It is a mothers responsiblity so make sure that her child is tested for the disease if she is a carrier. Woman in the early stages of pregnancy are often warned to stay clear of children with german measles just in case! Surely the same care should be taken by a HIV mother. A statement was made about HIV alcoholics and HIV prisoners living a long life, really? That is very strange! seeing as they are dying like flies in our prisons and it is not really advertised. I live in South Africa so by the way. Quite often HIV persons die because they are placed on HAART to late, when their CD counts and general state of health is sooooooo bad that the medicine is given too late or the roll out programme runs out of meds. As for Christine's husband, well it is early days yet. I attended a HIV awareness campaign where a 54 year old white man made the following statement: I had many lady friends until I met my wife. In the twenty years of married I was complety faithful. I led a heatlhy fit life but kept getting colds. When his company ran a voluntarily HIV testing campaign at work he decided to be tested as well in support of the campaign. What a bummer, he tested positive! So non-believers, beware of the bummer test.

I am not a denialist, nor am I anything else. I shouldn't even be entering this battle were it not for the fact that I know a few people who died from AIDS or HIV related illnesses. I can't say I know how it feels to be ill from the disease or the medications, so you may think I am wrong or that I have it easy and you are entitled to that. I will say that while there may be a conspiracy among the pharmaceutical companies, it's all greed and while they are only in it for the money, there has been proof that their product does work. It may be over-priced but would not be so pricey if there was NEVER any effect.
And yes what she did was amazing. She lived for sixteen years with a terminal illness. It is a fact your life is shortened a considerable amount by contracting HIV. Medications will extend your life if you are treated at an appropriate time, and treated with in a specific window of time. She should be considered a miracle, but then her living circumstances were rather nice weren't they. I doubt she was exposed to too many extremes that might weaken her already ailing immune system. I think that she lived very long through caution and care, I can not say definitively as I didn't know her at all. But common sense says she didn't winter in a hut in Siberia or suntan in the desert all summer long. Others with the illness should take a page from her book of healthy living and combine it with the meds and see how wonderfully they flourish.

She made a horrible mistake by letting her child die. and I do believe that she left her die, I think murder is a horrible word to use. As with most parents I feel that she was terrified and can you blame her. A person's own mortality is terrifying but that of one's own child can sometimes be nearly incomprehensible. But she was a human and deserves to be treated as such. As is Peter Staley. Grief is a very complicated system of emotions. But please in your grief remember that you are all linked by at least three things, your battle against the illness, the fact that you are all human and your need to be heard. There is enough pain in this world that you do not all need to be hurting each other and considering some of you personal experiences you should know this.

The meds are not perfect and yes they are a poison. So is tylenol, yet somehow people with headaches take it everyday and live long a healthy lives. Hopefully there will be better meds formulated yet to come but for now why not, what have you really got to lose, your longevity that is so precious is already at stake. If you take the meds and have adverse recations then quit taking them, if you die, well you would have eventually died anyways-As will I and every other person alive. There is NO Reward with out SOME risk. Great reward= Great Risk.

Another thing stop fighting one another and fight a battle for continuing availability of these medications. If they were free would you denialists still feel there were a conspircay, what would be the motive then? I know that we live in a greed driven world, but there is still good, there are still somethings worth living for. Think about it before you say anything or decide to hate me for my opinions. Then please take whatever radical views and word them kindly with the realization that I am attacking Noone.
With Love and prayers-H

While I believe in alternative healing, I believe in a blending of both types, not just one or the other, this has worked perfectly for me. It's a shame when folks are in that much denial. It's a very deep river and you can drown!! So sad!! :-(

Sorry Rick. There is just way too much science on this side of the fence. Certainly folks should do what is best for them but misinformation can be deadly. I was outraged when I first saw Ms. Maggiore and heard what she had to say a couple of years back, especially when it was clear that her child could have been saved has the medical community had better information regarding her health. It still angers me.

Ignorance kills. There have been many more lives saved by meds since 1996 than lives lost...way more. When you can show countless medical studies and more than 25 yrs of empirical evidence and research by world renowned, legitimate medical institutions to back up your theories, come back and visit this site.

Yes, the classic salesman pitch...AIDS meds are always better, newer, fresher, more citrusy. I wonder when AIDS meds will go green!

Rick:

As long as HIV remains the ONLY common denominator in otherwise healthy people who die of PCP, PML, cryptococcal meningitis and Toxoplasmosis you're out of business.

I'm not selling anything. Peter is the salesman, the "entrepreneur". If one wants to trust their health to someone who makes money as a result of their illness, backed up by the muscle of abuse from the likes of yourself and others, be my guest. But I imagine that more and more are looking for better options than wall street brokers and abusive bloggers to help them along the path to wellness and health, and this is what I am encouraging. I've never been much of a salesman :)

Denialism is redundant. I am HIV positive, take meds and live in the UK.
People (Adults) have a right to their beliefs but not the right to impose their beliefs on others (Children) when they may have devastating consequences. For that, I condemn Christine.
Why is denialism redundant?
Well, I am a pragmatist, and as such, believe in "what works". Current research and evidence is INCONTROVERTIBLE in its conclusions that HAART saves lives, by suppressing the virus, giving the immune system a chance to reconstitute itself.
Therefore, whether you believe that HIV causes AIDS or not, the evidence is clear that the current drugs interfere with HIV disease progression.

Conspricy theories are illogical when it comes to HIV causing AIDS denial. Can you really expect the whole of the scientific world to be implicated in a conspiricy? No.
The fact that drug companies make profits, Governments enact policies that cause death and destruction, is all true. But, that doesnt contradict the facts that HIV causes AIDS and that current HAART therapies have given life and hope to millions since 1996.
Pragmatism is clearly the philosophy of choice because it is based on what works, premised on evidence and research and verfied by the results...LIFE. I bet most of the denialists in the World are prepared to live with one extra contradiction in their lives and take the HAART drugs whilst denying HIV causes AIDS.

Lets clarify here. HAART will not give you life. It will give you suffering and eventually an untimely death. Some certainly appear to be interested in following this path, for whatever reason, as giving up on life has its own appeal to many. In fact, this is what Peter is betting on...

Rick, you are just wrong. HAART does give you life and if you deny this then your senses must be malfunctioning. People would be dead if it wasnt for HAART, if thats not giving life then I'm not quite sure what is? HAART does not cause suffering, I am not suffering. Wake up...take your meds and live..or else go away and die somewhere else.

No one is alive because of HAART, only in spite of it.

The only HIV positive's who are dying are:

1) Those who don't take orthodox medications and
2) Oh....never mind, there is only one group!

Yes, no HIV positives on the meds EVER die! You can live forever!

Here is a link (non-"denialist"-since so-called denialist links have been banned) to some HIV side effects:

http://www.thebody.com/index/treat/side_effects.html#general

if you think none of these side effects can kill you, well then I've got some swampland in Florida to sell you.

Follow this link (again non-"denialist"):

http://www.thebody.com/content/treat/art40471.html

and you discover that one class of antiretroviral medications (Nucleoside reverse transcriptase inhibitors) are referred to as "nukes". Would you want to put something with the nickname "nuke" in your body?

Maybe. This is part of the sick game these drug pushers are playing. They tell you that if you don't take these drugs, you will die. But it is fairly obvious from looking at the side effects that taking these drugs will eventually kill you...and this has its own appeal to some, especially if you have been diagnosed with a fatal disease highly associated with shame.

There is a better way. I truly hope some of you can find it, wherever it might be for you. The sooner these pushers lose this market, the better.

Hey Rick - ALL medications (even herbal ones) have side effects and in very remote cases, there is always a potential you can die (that includes simple aspirin).

Did you bother to see what the "side effects" are to HIV?

PCP
PML
Cryptococcal Meningitis
MAC
Toxoplasmosis

Those diseases are ABSENT from otherwise healthy people - UNLESS THEY HAVE HIV, of course!

And those diseases happen to be LETHAL when untreated - just like HIV!

Working in Africa puts a lot of things into perspective. I've seen hospitalized HIV+ people with CD4 count so low you can do the count on your fingers. Unable to connect to the outside world or take care of themselves. yet after a couple of weeks of ARV treatment they are on the road to recovery. They start eating, get back on their feet and eventually go back to work. It is a miracle and its called appropriate ARV treatment.

Still a pretty good market out there to fall back on huh Peter. I imagine they will get wise too. They have a lot of experience with imperialism.

I received a few personal emails from Christine Maggiore through my myspace page over the past year. She was nothing but delightful and a truly warm, caring and compassionate human being. If it wasn't for the film she and her husband made, The Other Side of AIDS, I may have never seen the truth and gotten off the hiv 'medications' that I took for 11 of the past 15 years since I tested hiv positive. The hiv test will come up positive from flu shots according to a 2006 New England Journal of Medicine report. 1, 2, or 3 proteins is all that are identified on the hiv test, and that all depends on which country you test in. Recreational drugs cause the body to produce those proteins according to an article published in the British Medical Journal. I have been trying to resolve this in a courtroom, but here in America the justice system has become very corrupt with payoffs to judges from drug companies so as not to allow these types of cases to be decided where they should be decided. A class action lawsuit will be a likely outcome. I have no idea why people who post comments here enjoy being so mean spirited against such a wonderful human being who contributed so much to finding the truth and simply defending her own rights for dignity as a human on this crazy planet. There are a lot of misguided men in the gay community, if there is such a thing, and their lack of love and understanding shows the level of fear they must be living with, and my heart goes out to all of you, but not until the gay community opens up their hearts and then their minds in order to stop all this in-fighting, will we ever see the end of AIDS. please visit the channel I created at [deleted] and healing alternatives. This has been so very painful to go through on a personal level, but we must come together for the sake of future generations, that is our duty and it will honor all those who come after us. ps. donald rumsfeld holds the patent on the hiv drug Atripla and profits from it to this day. just start thinking it through everyone, put all the pieces together and the AIDS puzzle is solved .... for all of humanity. Lots more people are waking up and getting off the hiv drugs now, and they are doing much better, but they had to be brave enough to understand the history first in order to distinguish between truth and lies. much love to all. G

I also wish to remind everyone that Christine Maggiore had tested hiv negative a year or two after testing hiv positive. It's time to cross-examine the cross-reactive hiv test in a court of law, where issues of this magnitude should always be allowed ... but as of now, they have not been. G - could someone please find me an attorney ... and a judge ... and a jury already.

Hey Peter,
I see that you have worked in Africa, from your post above. Can you tell me more?
I am going to go to Africa also to work as a Medical Technologist in 2010, although I have not yet figured out which agency I will work with/for. At first I considered Peace Corp, but they do not take Med Techs. Docs W/O Borders do, but they mostly deal with war torn areas.
Any suggestions on who to work with/for?
Thanks,
J. Todd DeShong
jtdeshong@hotmail.com

Peter, I made a vlog just for the record of the comments you allowed me to post here at your blog today. my channel is [deleted] - it would be great to really get some publicity on this issue and force a resolution in a court of law so that you and I and everyone else who has posted on this 'most commented' upon blog would no longer have to debate this issue. The mere fact that the courts are not allowing this is suspicious in itself. I think it is time we stop pretending that the military run CDC is really looking out for the best interests of certain 'high risk' groups here in America (or anywhere else on the planet for that matter). There are nine countries that still uphold the death penalty for homosexuality according to wikipedia. Also know that my heart goes out to everyone who has been misdiagnosed by the fraudulent hiv test like I was in 1993.

Gregory:

Do you have ANY EVIDENCE that Christine Maggiore tested "negative" or "indeterminite" at any time? Or did you just take her word for that?

Christine Maggiore was great at the verbal diarrhea of innuendo and using anecdotal stories for which she provided zero evidence!

Hanna, if you can get this into a courtroom, then the evidence will be provided. and may i remind you that insults do not go very far in a court of law. your anger is a symptom of some deeper issue. if there is anything i can do to help you please let me know. i know firsthand how painful this realization is. if you have any further questions about hiv i would recommend youtube. you can find me and a lot of my celebrity friends there. change is occurring on this planet and many people are experiencing much fear at this time. let us pray for all those who have been misdiagnosed with hiv and the AIDS syndrome. let us pray for the truth to come out and for the renewal of health for everyone who took the toxic hiv 'medications' like i did for 11 years. after stopping those 'medications' 2 years ago i have finally started to feel better physically. G

A courtroom Gregory, really?!

Why does ANYONE need to bring this into a courtroom? It was Christine Maggiore who claimed to have tested "negative" and "indeterminate" after a positive result in 1992.

The burden of proof lies with he who asserts.

As for you seeking answers about HIV/AIDS from "youtube," well, that explains an awful lot.

By the way, can you do the rest of us a favor and designate someone to communicate your impending death as its cause? Denialists drop like flies but it's most frustrating when a very vocal one drops off the face of the map (usually after posting about some grave illness they're treating with frankincense and myrrh while insisting it's only a "minor" bug) and we all know he/she died but no one reports it.

Be great if you could plan accordingly for that so we can all smirk when you, like Maggiore, bite the dust.

I am from Kenya and I was infected with the virus in 1999 by my x husband. I learnt I was positive during the first pre-natal test for our only child. Though it was the most devastating news to me having been a virgin for 32 years until i met him, while for my sake and that of the unborn child I accepted the irreversible condition and took all measures to ensure our son was born free of HIV and also that I took good care of my health until I started on ARV's two years ago, my x husband went on to live in denial and believe in Christines, Mbekis and any one else's information that denied HIV caused Aids.

However, one and half years ago, almost dying from TB and other complications brought about by the disease, he changed his mind and though we were separated pending divorce, I ensured he received the necessary attention and treatment and he is almost back to his old self again. He learnt the hard way.

Sometimes for the sake of the children that we have brought innocently to this world, we go an extra mile to ensure we care for them and are around for them for as long as God allows to breath - its the reason I started on ARV's when my CD4 count started declining. It will at least help me stretch my life long enough to see him grow into adulthood if no other force of nature takes my life.

Bravo to all those who have accepted their situation and are living positively.

Wamuca - you will live a long healthy life and thanks to your intelligence, you didn't have to suffer the ravages of TB or an OI that would only have weakened you and, perhaps, cut your life short - even if you had reconsidered when ill.

Christine Maggiore was pure evil. What she did to her own daughter and how she influenced the elimination of antiviral treatment for hundreds of thousands of decent men, women and children is the only reason I dance on her grave.

I don't believe in a god but it would be sweet to know she was, at least now, standing before an all-knowing entity who could sentence her to misery in eternal hell, just like the heartless agony she caused so many innocent souls on earth.

Well in time all the people with AIDS will past away to their new home and only HIV people will be around, so I guess the concept of AIDS is always going to be refined. And the Thanking of God is a good thing for truly I believe God brough us into the world and unveil the new meds and will take us out to the next.. I bless this woman with love to be in a better place in her new journy.

The side effect from the TOXIC drugs to combat HIV are EXTREMELY HARD TO DEAL WITH. Considering I'll more than likely die from Kidney failure or Liver failure, rather than AIDS is not much of an option. That is why people decide to not take or go off meds...

There is no cure!!!!

Hi Gary. Im absolutely astonished at how long you have lived with the disease. 1977? Thats truly Amazing. I would love to know when exactly you first began experiencing symptoms and how you may have been infected. Your case is very relevent to understanding the history of the early AIDS Epidemic, 1977-1981 As you know, there is much speculation as to how it spread in the US. Please respond back at your discretion. Thanks

Aliss

Hi Gary just incase you didnt receive my first comment... I am astonished at how long you have carried the virus. You are probably one of the earliest cases, that I know of. I would love to hear from you soon. Im researching the early development and spread of AIDS in US pre epedimic 1975-1980 period.

Aliss Weathers

Hello Gary. I am astonished at how long you have carried the HIV virus. It's quite extroadinary. As I mentioned, Im studying the beginnings of the US AIDS crisis and believe your case to be invaluable to the research and understanding the spread of HIV in the US during the pre epedemic period. I would love to hear more of the details regarding your case. Your case proves to be one of the earlier US cases and may further help researchers in understanding how and when this virus began spread. I really look forward to hearing from you.

You people are so ridiculously stupid. While you may claim that AID denial has led to thousands of deaths, HIV Meds have led to millions.. AZT killed the majority in the 80's, not AIDS!!!
Until you people wake up and stop allowing yourselves to be victimized by the stupid (and greedy with an agenda) medical industry, things will never change.
I've had it for 10 years now and any illness that I have ever had has been related to something curable (not HIV).
Do your research. This woman was not a moron. She probably died of natural causes or from heartache from losing her child. And infant death is common around the world, and not by the hands of AIDS! Get a clue. N
And by the way, once a medical coroner discovers that a mother has HIV, their child with regular pneumonia has suddenly become diagnosed with "AIDS pneumonia".. Not that hard to understand.

"Nate Mendel, bassist of the Foo Fighters, was a vocal supporter of Christine Maggiore about 10 years ago. I recall reading that the Foo Fighters either played a benefit or donated the proceeds of a show to her group. If you look around you'll find some photos of her with Dave Grohl, too."

Yes i've seen it, i've also seen the part where they realised they'd made a huge mistake listening to her and cut all ties.. Now the Foo Fighters fight for the correct side.. They admitted they were wrong and that denialism is stupid.. there's interviews on youtube.. it's easy to get poisoned and sucked in by somebody else when it's what they strongly believe

"I've had it for 10 years now and any illness that I have ever had has been related to something curable (not HIV)."

What's this rubbish your spounting? Your the one who needs to get a serious clue.. why don't you understand that HIV weakens the immune system over time.. so obviously your going to get more illnesses which can be warded off with or without meds.. Your clock is seriously ticking now.. 10 years in?? that's about the limit for untreated before your HIV turns to AIDS.. Good luck to you and have a think about it when your laying in hospital with pcp.. is this normal for me to be in hospital with pcp and wasting away when hiv doesn't cause aids?? I don't think so. Grow up. The meds will save your life time and time again.

I've been in touch with the HIV treatments development for a while, and I've always been interested in the AIDS/HIV related topics. I'm studying biochemistry and hope I can contribute to find a cure in the near future. But just a little while ago I've been aware of the AIDS denialists. I thought it was not big deal at first. But since that so called "documentary",House of Numbers, was released I've been seeing more and more people actually questioning facts that have already been proven for a long time. I live in a Southamerican country. And I'm horrified about the increasing influence these nut jobs are having. And their questionings are so lame and outdated that I don't even know how to reply to them.
BTW: I loved your article!

She killed her daughter. That girl was 3 years old. Why the F didn't social services step in? This kind of madness... *shakes head*

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This page contains a single entry by Peter Staley published on December 29, 2008 5:19 PM.

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